Captain
Las Vegas!
Interview with Trey Anastasio (The complete
unedited version)
Cory Ness May, 22, 2002.
The prospect of interviewing
Trey Anastasio was certainly an interesting
one. Many people seem fixated on the PH question,
but I began the by asking him questions about
his opinion of playing Las Vegas and the mythology
that has sprung up around his shows here. It
seems like anytime Trey comes into Las Vegas,
this city becomes a Music Mecca with pre-shows
and after-shows spring up everywhere. If Wayne
Newton is Mr. Las Vegas, Trey Anastasio should
be Captain Las Vegas! I therefore avoided anything
PH balanced in our discussion.
When we finally discussed the latest touring
unit and the newly released album, he was overly
excited to discuss this uncharted territory.
You couldn't keep him quiet- which for any fan,
or reporter, is sweet sweet gold. I think that
what interests Trey the most about his current
projects is the fact that they "feed the
ADD," and he gets an opportunity to fully
explore ways of expressing the ever revolving
music in his head. Anyone who had the opportunity
to see the preceding Vegas shows (particularly
set II, night II) understands in complexity
of this project.
In less than two years, Trey Anastasio has written
music for two albums and toured with two distinctly
different groups. If this in any indication
of the enrollment he will have in improvisational
music, it's sure going to be a fantastic ride.
(May 18th, 2002)
CN:
What sort of mythology does playing in Las Vegas
hold for you?
TA:
The history runs deep in the world of Phish.
It's funny that just the fact that I had these
two dates books and we turned it into sort of
a mini festival there, joining forces with the
roots, spearhead, great bands, you know. Los
lobos, a couple of my favorite bands. Because
every time we play in Las Vegas it seems to
be an enormous event.
CN:
As a result of these shows, a few other bands
are coming into town.
TA:
Les is coming right?
CN:
Yeah, Les Claypool is playing 1 AM shows and
another amazing group called Particle.
TA:
Well it's gunna be great. All types of things
happen in Las Vegas. I mean, we had Kid Rock
come out there with us, and we had that battle
of the Elvis' that one time. But probably, the
funniest thing that happened was that Oysterhead
was conceived to a certain degree in Las Vegas,
because I had this big party one night which
is what usually happens when we'd get a two-nighter
and Les was playing at the [House of Blues]
and actually there's a song on the Oysterhead
album that was written about that night, called
"Birthday Boys." The night was September
29th, which was Les' birthday, and mine, on
September 30th, so we were the birthday boys
that night and we had this big party and met
some funny characters, and Kid Rock was there!
CN:
Was that the night you came on stage to play
"Animals?"
TA:
Exactly. It always seems to turn into an over-the-top
party. I love going to Vegas. It's always on
the top of my list if you were going to ask
me where I want to play.
CN:
I actually interviewed Claypool about this weekend.
TA:
Did he tell you about Birthday Boy?
CN:
No, he didn't actually. He told me a lot of
really good stuff but nothing about Birthday
Boy. He's a hilarious character. But, do you
think you guys might be playing together this
time around?
TA:
Sure. Somewhere. Absolutely. Somewhere along
the line.
CN:
Well, I guess I mean in Las Vegas here.
TA:
Well, I guess. Either his show or my show or
someplace.
CN:
So where did the idea arise from to have all
these bands on bill?
TA:
It's something that I personally wanted to do.
Well, first of all for two reasons: like I said
I always like to turn a Vegas show into a big
event and something different. And secondly,
I felt that there were some similarities between
these bands and I thought it would be really
cool to get them playing in one room. I was
lucky enough to play with The Roots a couple
of years ago and I think they're amazing.
CN:
Do you anticipate much interplay between theseng bands and you guys?
TA:
I would guess so. I've playing with Los Lobos
before and they are also one of my favorite
bands. Spearhead I have not played with but
I've listened to Michael Franti and his records.
I love him and his style is one that I've been
hearing about and really wanted to see so this
show is sort of the opportunity to see him.
CN:
Okay, Great. Well, if you were stranded in a
desert-and I'm not necessarily equating being
stranded in a desert and living in Las Vegas-and
you could have only three things, what would
they be?
TA:
Oh, if I could only have three things? I would
say…. probably a guitar, tape deck and…pencil.
(Laugh)
CN:
What would you write on?
TA:
Do I get a pad of paper with that?
CN:
In one interview on the web, you mention that
"I'm trying to make music that uses what's
good about improvisation - which is the spontaneous
moments - while getting to a point where not
even ten seconds go by that there isn't some
elegant or unique moment happening."
I think this is a fairly accurate statement
about most of the music you write, but how do
you manage to keep things fresh and improvise
on stage with such an extensive lineup of characters?
TA:
Well there are two ways. First and foremost,
really get to know everybody in your band. I
mean, really pay attention and get to know what
their strengths and weakness are and then create
an atmosphere where they can be themselves.
All of a sudden there are lots of fresh ideas
happening on stage, where somebody is not being
held back in anyway. So, that's the first way.
And the second is through each of those strengths
sometimes, through the writing process. When
I'm working the stuff out, and the way of expressing
my general ideas to the band. So you know, I
write a horn chart or sing to them, or whatever-I
convey some kind of change where the horn players
are working-as opposed to some kind of standard
horn section where you're all playing together.
Like a riff, everybody's playing in a tongue
and groove kinda way, bits and pieces, all layered
together. So if I work out a thing like that,
and then they play the riff part, then I've
expressed an idea to them and I can say "well
that's the way my mind thinks, so if you combine
that with you being yourself to try to find
your little hole in the improv," It should
have an effect on the way the improv goes on
stage. Do you see what I'm saying?
CN:
Completely. I actually had the amazing experience
to have dead center, front row in Saratoga.
And there you had a separate mic setup to speak
with the band-and only a few in the audience
could really hear. So I've gotten to see you
in that dynamic working live with that.
TA:
Well, right, and what you're gunna
see, I'm telling you, between that tour to this
one, now that we've done an album, it's kind
of crystallized and now it feels like there's
much less, well, any confusion, I think, among
the band members is kind of washed away. So,
it's also a five piece orchestra. And a ten
piece band.
CN:
Yeah, it's huge.
TA:
So, I think it really seems to be coming together
now. We had a lot of weeks of rehearsal before
this tour. The mic is gone! That was the idea,
for the mic to be gone! You see what I mean?
CN:
Totally.
TA:
The mic was cool but that was all part of a
process to get to a point to where it's just
happening.
CN:
So now you cut everyone off.
TA:
You see what I mean? And now the mic is gone.
CN:
Well, speaking of your rehearsals, you once
gave a talk called "Trey guitar class"
up in San Francisco I think, where you discussed
how, with Phish, you guys would practice where
you would take a song and figure out different
amalgamations of it, where one member of the
band would change it and the rest of the band
would have to catch up. That was pretty cool.
I've tried that. And it's so simple.
TA:
It works, right?
CN:
It really does and I think it's a great improvisational
exercise. Doe you try something like that with
this band in the studio?
TA:
I did that very same thing actually, even though
it was only a small bit, practicing-wise. We
didn't have all the time in the world, but we
did that little exercise a little bit in practice.
Enough for people to get the concept. The basic
idea is that in an ideal world, on stage, you
would be aware of what all the other musicians
are doing. That's [part of] a bunch of exercises
to try to get to the point where you're just
listening to the rest of the band. So that if
the music stopped, I could then turn to the
trombone player and say "sing me what the
keyboard player was doing." And he should
be able to do it. That's the level that I'm
trying to get to. A full awareness of what everyone
is doing. And at that point in time you sort
of get outside yourself and start working as
a piece of a group. That to me is sort of the
highest level music.
CN:
So you practice performing as much as listening.
TA:
That's the idea, to create a big wash of color.
And I can get carried away with this kind of
stuff, but this is what we talk about in rehearsal
and this is what we're doing. So if you want
to know the truth of the matter…
Well, if you look at a landscape, right? What's
incredible about it…well, an example that
I use sometimes is if you're in the desert,
the balance for there to be life-and you guys
are in a desert, it's Vegas, so go outside in
Vegas, and look at the plant life, and you don't
want to just go out walking anywhere because
it's so delicate. And every piece has it's function
and that's the whole idea of having a large
group on stage, that's what I'm looking for,
people thinking that way, as a group, and just
letting the improvisational ideas happen by
listening and finding their place in that landscape
of sound, they just by nature should come up
with something beautiful because it's function
is, well, no one's trying to prove anything,
all you're trying to do is maintain the balance
with everyone being themselves, so all this
writing and practicing is going towards that
goal. That's the idea.
And sometimes people ask me about long solos-
you know? "Are there long solos?"
I don't really even want to do a solo at all,
really. If you listen to "Last Tube"
of the album, it's not really a solo at all.
Nicholas Payton, the trumpet player on that
track, he's playing a long single note line,
and I'm playing a single note line, and the
horn section is sort of hauntingly echoing the
guitar line, but that's because everyone is
sort of being themselves, you know what I mean?
CN:
Yeah.
TA:
Like painting a landscape, one guy is the horizon
line and one guy is doing mountain line.
CN:
I think Ray Down Balloon is an example of everyone
doing just enough to create a delicate texture.
TA:
Exactly! It's like chipping away all the excess
crap so you can get right to the core of it.
The cool thing about combining that idea-which
is sort of a compositional idea, to improv is
that, where you're reaching for a sculpture
and you're chipping away, like Michelangelo
used to say, "till I hit flesh." The
thing about improv is that you don't know what
you're chipping away at, you don't know what
sculpture you're trying to make. It's a big
surprise to everyone when it happens, when everyone
as a group comes to some oasis, that you never
expected. And that to me has it's own kind of
excitement to it, and it becomes different every
night, so that's the idea.
CN:
Speaking of chipping away, for the album, could
you explain the challenge of taking songs that
already have acquired quite an extensive live
existence and then whittling them down-say something
like Ray Down Balloon….Well, the challenge
of making a studio representation of a live
extended emotion is really challenging for a
lot of "jambands" and not everyone
succeeds with that. And I think this recent
album is fantastic in your ability to do that.
Could you explain this studio process?
TA:
Well, we had all this material because we had
been on tour, and I recorded all the rehearsals,
and the fact that we did it in my barn and not
a recording studio per say, this is the same
studio where we rehearse and it's all very organic,
right? And I think that the attitude is almost
like a recklessness that you have to maintain,
I'm learning now, that sounds kind of strange
but in the album making process you need the
same kind of recklessness that you have playing
live. It's a combination of discipline on one
side and reckless abandon, and the reckless
abandon would be you go in there and say "hey
let's just start playing," and then you
play ten songs. And one of them has some kind
of magic moment that everyone gets excited about,
so I might grab that song and start working
on it, playing it back and maybe adding a part
to it or something like that. And then a few
days goes by and all of a sudden you realize
that this other song that you planned to be
on the album you haven't addressed, so you have
to have the strength at that point to say "oh,
I guess it doesn't want to be on the album"
and then throw it out. And then eventually you
end up in the end, if you keep that process
going forward all the time, with no concern
about what gets left behind, and eventually
you end up with….
CN:
The euphoria.
TA:
Yeah, you spend all your time in the positive
current direction, working on the stuff that
you want to work on, and really try not to think
about it too much. You're on cruse control,
and all of a sudden the day comes when you're
supposed to get the album, and say, "Uh,
okay, here it is." (Laugh) And then on
to the next one.
CN:
I think this new lineup also allows you to write
more instrumental harmonies, than you perhaps
could with Phish?
TA:
Yeah, there's some writing, that if you look
at the pieces, are very similar, Split
and Melt or Squirming Coil there's something
there that's not so far removed, that still
me, you know that's not so far removed from
"At the Gazebo." Right? But having
the option of all these other instruments. You
get the colors. Well, let's say you're doing
"At The Gazebo" for example. That
piece played on left hand, right hand piano,
electric bass and guitar-it just wouldn't sound
the same. You can't get any of the overtones.
You can't draw out those long notes the way
you can. On the album, it's played with a brass
quartet and a string quartet, it's like two
saxes, trumpet, trombone, and obviously by the
nature of those instruments it works in a way
that it wouldn't work. I think what happened
with Phish is that you start writing in a very
different way because it's based on the instrumentation.
I think this stuff moves kind of faster!
CN:
Well, I haven't recovered from the Saratoga
show, and if you guys are even tighter, I don't
know what I'm going to do with myself…
TA:
Well then you have to check it out then. The
fifth horn player, who by the way is wicked
talented, Peter Apfelbaum, that's like the magic
number I also found out! Because with five horns
you can split the sections, you can have three
people doing one thing, and that's still a horn
section, and then you have the option of two
flutes doing some of the orchestral lines. It
reallyd up a lot of options. I didn't
anticipate that until the first day of rehearsal.
CN:
Wow.
TA:
Yeah, even the album version of some of those
tunes, like "Alive Again" horn line-that
crossing line that wasn't there last summer.
You see what I mean by that? You can split the
section and have a whole other part.
CN:
What else about this lineup is different than
last summer?
TA:
Cyro.
CN:
Zero?
TA:
Cyro Baptista. Absolutely over the top. The
whole time last summer, I was thinking that
I've got this really solid rhythm section, incredibly
solid, with Tony (Markellis) and Russ (Lawton).
Both of them are pretty straight. And musically,
what I was wishing on hearing was the more cross-rhythmic
drumming. Interplay and Cyro brought that, and
also his spirit-- he's an incredible human being
and an incredible musician and he gets on stage
and just lights the whole thing up, you know?!
Plus, he's got experience and he's Brazilian
and he's teaching us all this stuff about afro-Cuban
rhythms and Brazilian rhythms. That's real cool.
CN:
Wow. Well, jumping back to the album here. Rather
than a singular concept album, this has amazing
diversity. You hear everything from James Brown
to Pavement, but it's still uniquely you. I
see it more a snapshot that expresses this live
performance….Well, I'm not sure I have
a question now. (Laughter). Well, could you
comment on the diversity of this album?
TA:
Well that's so funny because, probably for me
the challenge for me is more cohesiveness, because
I have all these different interests and ideas.
But to my ears, it sounds cohesive. It seems
like an album that was very much meant to be
listened to in one sitting. There's supposed
to a journey there. There is to my brain, that's
the way I hear it. There's also a lot of thought
on the arrangement. It starts off very solid,
with straight forward rock tunes, and then sort
of deconstructs as it moves along, all the way
to "Last Tube" which is in certain
ways, the center piece. So, to me there were
music ideas that were very very simple in the
beginning of the album. Well, the example that
I use a lot is that the most pop song on the
album which is "Drifting," well, on
the outro, you've got the string quartet and
the horns, and everybody's playing in a pattern
and sort of trailing, right?
CN:
Yeah, as they trail away.
TA:
Yeah, if you listen closely to it, there's sort
of this cat and mouse thing going on there.
That was kind of the musical concept. So it's
in this very simple pop tune, and then after
that you have "At the Gazebo," where
those ideas begin to get explored a little more
deeply. All the way through "Mr. Completely,"
where you have the full orchestra going. And
then "Ray Down Balloon" with the orchestra,
with the horns, and everybody, and then finally
"Last Tube." You see what I mean?
It seems cohesive in my head, but I don't know
if any of this stuff is mentally conveyed the
way I'm hearing it but that's what I was thinking
of.
CN:
It sounds like a whole tour on one album, where
each song is like the complete vibe of a show.
And you get the whole adventure
TA:
Well, that's cool. There was a lot of that feeling
and I have learned a lot from playing live,
about the way things develop, and I wanted it
to kind of unfold as an album. And then it all
comes back on the last tune.
CN:
Do you think that you'll ever write a song called
"Middle Tube?"
TA:
"Inner-tube." That's what I 'm working
on right now. (Laugh). It will be the whole
album. One song.
CN:
Right. What are some of the cultural issues
that that song might explore?
TA:
Surfing.
CN:
Excellent.
TA:
They're all about surfing.
CN:
Really?
TA:
Oh yeah! There have been a lot of theories about
what "First Tube" means. You know,
your first bong hit or your first TV? (laugh)
CN:
Or I guess your first tube surfing.
TA:
Well that's what I always thought of it. After
spending three months living in L.A. when we
were doing "Hoist," I went surfing
everyday. I was so frustrated because it looks
so easy and it isn't. But at the same time you
get the sense that it's coolest thing you can
do on the planet earth. I really think that.
Other than playing music, if I could do anything
else it would be surf. So then at a certain
point, in your mid thirties, you realize that
you're never going to be inside the tube. So
basically what you have to do is write a song
to simulates what that would feel like. You
know, you're pushing forty and you still can't
stand up on the surfboard. So eventually you
have to admit that you'll never be surfing the
Baja pipeline.
CN:
Well, hold on. You are going to Australia I
think I right?
TA:
Yeah?
CN:
Well, the reek breaks in Australia are sometimes
far more predictable in Australia and I might
be easier to learn off the east coast of Australia
than it is off the coast of California.
TA:
So I still have a chance of being in the tube?
CN:
Certainly. Don't give up yet.
TA:
So I can get the key to the green room?
CN:
The key is definitely there. Well that does
bring me to another question. Now this group
does have aspirations of some world dates, right?
TA:
Well, we're definitely going to go to Japan.
Well, there are a lot of places I'd like to
go but it all becomes a question of time. Because,
it's interesting, there's something really great
about touring, but when it comes right down
to it, I really like writing, you know? So I
have to balance those things.
CN:
What are you writing right now?
TA:
I've got a bunch of new stuff actually. We're
doing new songs on this tour, right now. I learned
some things about writing for horns on this
last album and now I'm trying to stretch that
a little farther.
CN:
Well, you keep adding musicians, do you see,
like three years from now the band including
like twenty five musicians.
TA:
You know it's not impossible! But you know,
it's very much a band. And that's the thing
that's strange, that I still love being in a
band. And that means that the band is the culmination
of the personalities that are in it. And so,
the more people you have, well, it's complicated
enough keeping four people on the same task,
but when you get ten people, you start asking
yourself how is [the music] going to unfold
that you didn't anticipate. So at this point,
I'm just taking it one tour at a time and right
now. This is the tour, for me, this month. I'm
just going to enjoy every second of it. And
that's way I don't try to plan too far ahead.
Who knows what's going to happen with Phish
and all that stuff?
CN:
Well, you had a really good interview with Guitar
World about Phish, so I thought I'd focus on
what you're doing now.
TA:
This is what I'm doing now, this month, that's
It. It's feeling like a real good fit for the
kind of things that I want to do. With this
fifth horn, it's incredible! And definitely
the three-piece percussion, rhythm section works
for me! There's just so much you can do with
two drummers and especially with people as talented
as Russ and Cyro, that makes it all the deepest
funk, afro-Cuban music, reggae, you know, all
those paths of groove-oriented music with those
drummers playing together.
CN:
So how was last night? (The first night of the
tour)
TA:
Loved it!
CN:
Excellent.
(And
then it gets alittle goofy….. and this
is all I can print!)
CN: So when Night speaks to
a woman, what does she say?
TA:
Well that's in there. You've got to listen to
the album.
CN:
What are your opinions about backgammon?
TA:
I prefer front-gammon
CN:
Can you comment on the evolution from backgammon
to Inner-gammon?
TA:
Inner-gammon! I'm working on Inner-gammon right
now! I play a lot of Inner-gammon, as I'm working
on Inner-tube, the new album.
CN:
So it seems like you avoid the outsides and
just borrow into the essence of what you're
doing.
TA:
Backgammon was so last week. It's all about
Inner-gammon now.
CN:
How would you compare that to deep-sea fishing?
TA:
I like mid-sea fishing.
CN:
Well, that's about it. I think I may have one
more goofy one for you. Well, do you ever leave
the barn door and does anyone ever say
"Hey, what'd you grow up in a barn?"
TA:
I actually spend my days waiting for my wife
to kick me out of the house and tell me I'm
going to have to sleep in the barn. It hasn't
happened yet. But I can't wait for that to happen.
"Oh no, not the barn!"
